However, I've observed on this site that people who believe in the possibility of the "2012 phenomenon" are generally derided as either cynical liars out to cash in on others' misery or gullible idiots. Well, I am a believer in "2012". I don't stand to make any money by making this claim. And I'll stake my intellect against anyone else on this website. (Not saying I'm a super genius—just that I can hold my own).

Why would I want to do that? For the same reason others here have for arguing the other side—I believe that lives depend on it. But for me it's not a matter of random people here or there overreacting to their fears and taking their own lives. For me it's about the wholesale annihilation of countless innocent people, my own daughters and extended family among them. So I'm hoping that one of the leaders on this site (Astrogeek?) will respect my motivations and agree to engage with me in a productive, rational debate.

I actually hold open the possibility that I may be convinced to change my position if my facts and logic don't stack up. I think it would be very cool if someone would enter the debate with the same degree of openness. It may be that neither of use will change the other's mind. But wouldn't it be refreshing to have two intelligent people having a constructive debate without resorting to name calling, hyperbole and specious arguments? And wouldn't that help illuminate the topic for people much better, so they can make up their own mind having heard a fair representation of both sides?

To get this debate started, let me begin by clarifying my position. First, I must qualify my statement that "I am a believer in 2012". I actually subscribe to the biblical verse that states that no one knows the time and date of the "end of days". So I am NOT arguing that the music is suddenly going to stop on 12/21/2012. In fact, subscribing to that biblical quote means that that is the one day it can't be because so many people think they know that date. Rather, my position is that human civilization is inexorably headed toward an imminent, cataclysmic change that will result in widespread death and destruction. I won't go so far as to say that it's absolutely unavoidable, but just that there is a high probability of it. I don't know exactly what form it will take, and I don't know how soon it will happen. But I believe it will be sooner than later. I think the probability increases dramatically around 12/21/2012 if for no other reason than because of the psychosocial dynamics that will have been ratcheted up to fever pitch by that time. But again, I would not consider that a certainty by any means. But if that date passes uneventfully, it doesn't mean that the crisis was averted. It only means it hasn't happened yet.

Given that is my belief, the question is whether I should just keep my thoughts to myself so as not to alarm those who don't share my belief (or who are unaware). Or should I try to at least warn them about it since I believe their lives depend on it. To me, the answer is clear.

So I hope that someone here will take up my challenge and we can have a worthy debate that will help educate folks about this most important topic.

Standy by…

Dane

Are there any coming soon Astro and what will they cover?

Many thanks in advance!!

:-D

Officially ABC and Disney canceled the episode stating that they do not endorse nor give and credence to the potential cataclysmic events associated with the belief in 2012, and they will not air anything that may show them to endorse any fear based materials. If that was truly the case, then why did they produce the show in the first place?

Unofficially and according to a ABC affiliate representative, the show was reviewed by a 'government entity' that ordered the episode to be removed form all publications in the interest of national security. The statement went on to say, “the subject family’s beliefs ran very deep. They were making real plans for survival and were to disclose many of the theories pertaining to 2012. The show was deemed to be a national interest threat and could cause a potential global panic”. The statement went on to say that, “all-future television shows pertaining to 2012 are now subject to approval. The airing of existing and future shows and documentaries, must include an expert scientific disclaimer of impossibility and must be classified as fiction or fantasy”.

OK, it's a crank website where truth is normally as rare as hen's teeth, but if this is correct, it's a very welcome sign. Has anybody heard about this or is there any way of finding out whether this is true? I believe the show was in fact broadcast because it is available as a streamed video. Presumably the 'government entity' must have overlooked this. OK, so that part of the story was a lie (surprise surprise) but is the whole story an invention about those nasty government people exercising censorship?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_diNGZSr8N0&feature=related

I will continue to come here and ask questions, and bug you guys about Geryl and the others.

I want to thank you all for all of your hard work and time dedicated to this issue but for some of us it is a little too late, my daughter recently turned 16 and I fear that she may be spending the rest of this year in a psychiatric hospital, she's a typical teen who is going through many changes but after hearing about 2012 she slipped into a dark depression that I just couldn't make her snap out of and instead of seeking help, she turned to a bottle of pills as a solution and now I have to visit my baby in a psychiatric hospital because of these people who just want to get famous.

I found your website two days after she was first admitted to the hospital and I believe that this website could have helped and prevented what has already taken place but I know that you are helping many others and I hope that your message reaches them in time.

Sincerely,
Rose.

We've just been made aware of a new shame-on, a lady by the name of Kiesha
Crowther. She offers the usual story and ceremonies (including crystals), she
claims her mother was ndn, so she's got elders from the „Salish Sioux“ (ahem!)
who made her a shaman (quite unlikely as the lady is a mere 30 years of age),
and of course she's got a real ndn name (TM): Little Grandmother, or, as she
translates this: Ci'Kala Uci' (both words are Lakota, or close, but the word
order is wrong…).

When I researched Crowther, I saw she also founded her own tribe, the Tribe of
Many Colors which seems to be run similar to a cult. There is a site
maintained for Crowther by some of her followers at:
http://www.tribeofmanycolors.net/kiesha/kiesha-crowther.html . The site is
translated into nine languages by followers of Crowther, and Crowther has done
events in several European countries.

Looking at the site and into the site's forum, I realized that Crowther also
happens to be into 2012 big time. In the forum, followers throw around the
names of several big figures, like Calleman and even David Icke (yeccchhhh).
Crowther apparently also cooperates/supports an alleged Maya High Priest (of
course) by the name of Alejandro Oxlaj aka Alejandro Perez Oxlaj aka Alejandro
Cirilo Perez Oxlaj.

Perez Oxlaj's name led me to the site „Shift of the Ages“ -
http://www.shiftoftheages.com/ - which seems a cooperation project of Steven
Copeland (writer, director, producer), Elizabeth Araujo (executive producer –
and Perez Oxlaj's wife), Joseph Giove (exec. Producer), and Kleomichele Leeds
(exec. Producer).
Their site is impressive – it must be, because they're all in for your money!
There is an Ambassador Program, and you can become a Community Ambassador, a
National Amb., a Planetary Amb., and even a Galactic Amb. - the latter means
you're expected to cough up money in the ranks of „4 to 6 digits“. The SOTA
crew, or rather Copeland, does films and they also seem to organize events
with Senor Perez Oxlaj.

While researching these people, I also saw that Carl Calleman seems to have a
new follower in Slovenia (Crowther plans to do events in this country in
Oct/Nov 2010), an associate professor by the name of Dr.Tadere Jere Lazanski.
The doctorate sounds somewhat impressive until you learn that she's ass. prof.
in touristic studies, so as far as Maya calendars are concerned, she speaks
with as much authority than me or the next person.

I felt a bit overwhelmed at this stage of my research and it's also not my
regular kettle of fish – but you might be more interested in debunking them.
I'm sorry, and I definitely don't want to come across rude and just throwing
work at you. But to get into the matter in due depth, I'd have to do a lot of
reading first.

Crowther seems to have started her shame-on business only two years ago, but
doing a google research for her name will present you with more than 92,000
entries – and another 3,000 if you misspell her first name as 'Keisha' which I
just did. So her name seems to be traded around quite a bit among the 2012
crowd and she seems to gain popularity. Which I find a case of concern given
the totalitarian cult-like characteristics of her fake tribe (and after having
read a few posts in that forum - „can you help, I'm seeing blue lights“ - „so
do I, they're angels meaning to tell you something“…)

The NAFPS thread on Crowther pls find at:
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2871.0 .

Again, I hope for your understanding that I just toss these names at you and
leave you to do the work :blush:, but I'm already quite busy in real life and
with two internet projects on debunking frauds. But if there ever is a German
language site you might want to have more detailed info on, I'll be happy to
translate (I'm a German citizen).

Best regards,
[redacted]

TeV energy collisions can lead to formation of a droplet of dangerous fermionic or bosonic condensate (strangelet or magnetic hole, correspondingly). That will lead to collaptical explosion of our Earth and Sun. Astronomers can see about 15 such explosions in our Galaxy every year.

There is very great probability that we all are already doomed, if the dangerous droplets were already created and grow somewhere inside the Earth. We’ll be able to know about growing droplets existence, when their masses will be about of 1 kg or couple of orders more. At such mass their neutrino output will be comparable to the output of one nuclear power station. On the next day – ten times more; the next day – hundred times more…

So, fasten your safety belts, - be ready to start into cosmos; be ready to suicidal reproduction of our biosphere.
If a microscopic magnetic holes were already created, then physicists will register the additional and growing flux of electronic antineutrino from the Earth;
If a microscopic droplets of strange matter were already created, then physicists will register the additional and growing flux of different sorts of neutrino from the Earth.

Do not fear.
We have a sacred mission – not only to die, but to bring the life to other stellar systems.
The most probably, the dangerous condensate was already created and it is growing now somewhere inside the Earth.
So, I do not think, that now, after the crime was already performed, there is a cause to fight against the suicide of our planet.
Glory to CERN physicists!
I wish to all of you a happy flight to stars.
Our biosphere must reproduce.
We are seeds of future life in the Galaxy. The seeds must be transported to other stars in comets. The explosion of a grown-up habitable planet is an inevitable element of biospheres reproduction.

Don’t fear to die and perform your sacred mission.

Yesturday I have made a program "Explosion of the Earth, switched by criminal physicists".

Here it is:
http://darkenergy.narod.ru/ExplosionRu.exe in Russian;
http://darkenergy.narod.ru/Explosion.exe in English.

http://darkenergy.narod.ru/
http://www.lhcportal.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=116&start=975

thank you so much again!

I would like to know what you have researched regarding psychedelics and the mind? What about the area of consciousness?.

There has been a lot of serious and respectable research regarding psychedelics and the mind. Your very narrow minded myopic view regarding this subject weakens YOUR "debunking" attempts.

I would suggest you go to MAPS (Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies)

http://maps.org/

The overall TONE of this website is pretty typical for a skeptical website. You throw a lot of junk in there about 2012 (which IS junk.. admittedly) and then use that to attempt to muddy the waters and discredit legitimate research and investigation.

You are just merely "debunkers" but that does not mean you are "Free thinkers" and while Critical thinking and reason is important.. you really demonstrate serious bias and negativity and a lack of research into other areas of study that would perhaps provide you with a broader understanding of the world, science and consciousness. Not everything is black and white.. and reductionist materialistic science IS very old school…. I would get up to speed on the more recent info out there.

Peace

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Njg4eB_Mfk&feature=related

http://in.news.yahoo.com/139/20100826/981/tsc-massive-solar-storm-to-hit-earth-in_1.html

http://www.prophecyfilm.com/index.php

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vxd_hsiZ1Ak&feature=related

Are they really removing camps from google map? Does this have something to do with 2012 Martial Law Obama? New World Order? I think they are planning something but I don't know.

Apparently Hurricane Earl has something to do with chemtrails that jets make and HAARP causing the weather patterns to form a hurricane. And I read a comment on CNN saying that Danielle was supposed to "wipe out" the entire East Coast. I find the word "wipe out" to be a bit extreme even for a hurricane. And apparently Earl is something they have been talking about for years. I don't know much of anything about Hurricanes, though I would like some info on Earl.

Then sometime last week, I got the most bizzare message concerning about the Russian Wildfires. It said that it was caused by a type of laser weapon designed by the Russian's to rise in power as the USSR again so they can try and work with communism again and invade the United States and western Europe.

Then my friend sent me a link to a website saying the China landslides were caused by Niribiru affecting the ground because apparently China got affected by it because it just so happens Niribiru was pointing DIRECTLY at the spots where the landslides were.

Then I got another link to where it had stories of people having visions in near-death experiences of seeing some catastrophe in 2012.

13 Lightyears away…..How far is that? When was this found? Could it pose a threat?

We've all at one time or another have come across all the 2012 hysteria and the false claims that are mostly debunked by this site but yet you get a few of the crazed 2012 believers that want us to worry about every thing around any corner. Now while i'm not a debunker i'm going to weigh in on a few things that a lot of the crazed 2012 doomsayers.

First off the supporters of the proponents.

Nibiru defenders obviously are the big ones here as that's partly the reason the 2012 stuff. And to those defenders of Nancy Leider let me just say this SHE PREDICTED THIS IS 2003 and it didn't happen so why should anyone believe her now. Not to mention that as people have pointed out here on the forum have said for Nibiru to even be in the position to hit us in 2012 it would have to be here at this moment.

The History Channel. Alright now on to the History Channel who have traded credibility for ratings with their numerous 2012 specials including yet another Nostradomis one that is airing within the next several days. For people that want to believe what they see on T.V. they need to wake up because Not only are you people believing a TV Program but you are also beliving people with no qualifications or actual facts sounds like most of the 2012ers doesn't it.

The Bible. This is a rather easy one for anyone who actually has read the Bible and the Book of Revelations but yet people seem to link the Bible and specifically Wormwood. But as has been predicted by many to come in 2012 and that the Bible supposedly has some end time prophecy that no one's ever seen in 2012. How about the 2012ers try to remeber this important verse. But of the day and the hour no man shall know not even the angels in the heavens or the father but only the son. It should be overly clear that the Bible says nothing about 2012 or December 21st 2012.

And most importantly The Mayan Calendar which is apparently the vocal point of these doomsayers. Here's my question how do the doomsayers predicted anything for Dec 21st 2012 How do they possibly know that was one of these 2012ers there when the Mayans were making this calendar. Also if the Mayans were smart enough to know when our world time was ending how come they had no knowledge of being masscared by Cortez and his Conquistadors. Come on do some research.

That's my little view on 2012 and doomsday hope you guys enjoy reading it. Keep up the great work on the site.

I'll admit, the video in it self isn't all that impressing, but the combination of techno crap like Infected Mushroom and yet another Youtube user that have unravelled the darkest secrets out there is quite entertaining. Even more so when you browse through the comments of the video. Even though you can clearly see the second sun "disappear" in the end of the video people still proclaim something that could only be described as the second comming.

So, how come people are so hellbent on proving that we are all going to die even though there is nothing that indicates such a thing? Tired of life, seeking fame or just plain bored? Personally I blame my OCD, but that's just me=)

I had a discussion with a claimed intuitive (like Lieder, according to herself). After debating her for several days I thought I would put her intuition to the test and simply asked her to "intuit" where I was located at the moment. Her guess was somewhere in the Midwest, which was about 4440km wrong. Even so people still believed her. I mean really, she missed my location with sooo much that it was ridiculous and still people consult her on advices on how to surrvive Nibiru

It gets more than a little frustrating in the long run, which really makes it all that more apparent that you guys must have a patience out of this world. Actually, during my stay here I've grown more and more impressed with how you guys handle all claims, and in particular some of mine (I know that I can be incredibly stubborn, and apologize for that). So really, thank you all for all the time you invest in this place and all the patience you have with the likes of me=)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzzvJ9uHGWw

The theories surrounding 2012 has done a lot of damage, the range of the impact is virtually limitless as it has effected children, teenagers and adults. It's necessary for the affected individual to sit down and think about what they're believing. A planet that is only visible from Australia? A space craft, ready to fire at any moment? The anti-Christ within our presidents?
Once the individual realizes and accepts how ridiculous these claims truly are, that's a big step to recovery and unfortunately for those who are unable to accept facts, it's a step that is necessary.
The road of recovery, no matter what you're recovering from, is often a rocky road, you will have your up's, you will have your down's and sometimes, you won't know which way you're going, but it's necessary that you remain willful or, else you will never recover from this horrific fear-driven slumber that you have managed to slip into.

The first step is some times the hardest, depending on the person, it's always best to start with the little steps. The way that I recovered from fear, was simple, but effective, and as follows:

1) Walking
2) Listening to music
3) Communication with family, friends, co-workers, etc.
4) Going out, having a good time, partying, etc.
5) Research
6) Facing your fears, accepting and understanding
7) Distractions (i.e.; Reading, gaming, writing, drawing/sketching, singing, learning something new, etc.)
8) Spending time with particular groups of people (i.e.; Family, closest friends, etc.)
9) Making amends
10) Cartoons.

Yes, the 10th is real, I watched a lot of cartoons and I still do.

It's necessary for the individual affected to choose their own path, every person has varying comfort zones and this is why it's necessary for them to choose, getting out in the world, living life and distracting yourself with everyday life are always good ways to forget about your fears, but bear in mind that you can always talk to someone about your fears, if this is something that helps.
Researching is a great way to get started, you will get the facts from professionals and the opinions of others, but remember what was said earlier, it's ultimately up to you to accept the facts that are given to you.
For some people who have dealt with fear in the past, activities such as meditation and Yoga have helped put their minds at ease, but also as I said, it's all about the person's comfort zone.
Exercising is a great distraction and a fun past-time, but exercising, in this case, specifically with the rumors of "Planet-X" and "Nibiru", exercising is also a good way to face your fears.
As I've learned, many people who are frightened by the theories of the mysterious planets are actually afraid to look at the sky and when they do, they see what they want to see. Bright star? It's a killer planet. But what they don't take into account is that a bright star or, a red star, may very well be Venus or, Mars, and it's because of this, that they run back inside and hide under the blankets, but it's also necessary to accept that what they see, may be natural, it may have been there since before life even began.

Bear in mind one fact, and one fact alone.. Wherever you go, there will be theories, there will be prophecies, there will be predictions, but also bear in mind that no one on this planet, not the ancients, not us and no one "out there" can predict our future, once you come to terms with this fact, you will realize how silly it is to believe someone who claims to predict something as huge as a doomsday.
You can ask for help, in fact, it's recommended that you do ask for help, but remember that it's up to you, and only you to overcome the fear that plagues your mind today, other people can only help so much, it's up to you to put what you've learned to use, it's up to you to accept the facts or, believe the fiction.

My fears, which are not doomsday related, began in 1995 and each and every day that I step outside, I have to face the source of my fears and I have to deal with the thoughts that go through my mind, but at the end of the day, I'm no longer fearful, but my fears have had an impact and I do, sometimes wonder what could or, will happen, but I push myself to keep going and to keep my chin held high and I must admit, I'm proud of the progress that I've made by myself. This is something that you will have to do, in the end, you will have to overcome your fear by yourself and you will have to keep pushing yourself along that path of recovery and if you slip, you just keep pushing forward.

So, the choice is yours. Are you going to stare at your ceiling all night or, are you going to go outside and look at the beautiful sky that our universe provides for us? Will you live in fear or, live to enjoy the things in your life? Those are the things that you must ask yourself.

• Astro, feel free to edit, add, delete, move or, sticky this post if you want to keep it or, if you feel that it needs more to it.

http://kapielraaj.com/KYIRUX.html

Saw that article today. Please tell me i they are close to us and if one could be Nibiru or threaten Earth.

If he or anyone else has done a bite-sized version (or indeed if that one does the job), we should probably put it in the introduction.

Ofcourse, I'm no scientist but I've looked in to all possible doomsday scenarios proposed by the anti-LHC maniacs and thereby have a somewhat good understanding of just how ridiculous they actually are. Perhaps even a short summary of the LSAG-report could be enough?

Please observe that I'm not saying that the current information isn't good enough, because it is. But I know from own experiences that it could be necessary to get the specific fears adressed separately.

Just a thought, but perhaps it is a little offtopic?

Highlight of the page for me:

We have previously stated that the Planet X complex would be seen in the skies, undeniably, 7 weeks before the shift. Nancy has computed the whole sequence to be approximately 7 weeks, and this is accurate enough.

If it's accurate enough for Nancy and the Zetans, it's accurate enough for me…

Something involving the use of Google Sky to track an incoming large number of celestial bodies coming straight for us/the sun/the solar system.

… Apparently Nibiru has adopted a new solar system and is bringing it with him on it's return visit.

Okay, look. I know this defies all logic, but I really need to know something: How can this even be considered remotely possible?

The video is called something along the lines of "Double tailed comet" or whatever, which you can find on the related bar to the right if you check out Elliot's videos. Again, I refuse to do direct links. I can't subject myself to the insanity again.

Seriously, you don't NEED to tell me how impossible this is. Actually, wait. Please do. Laughter makes the ouch go away.

Just wondering what everyone's opinions are!! Is the guy doing the survey credible and is he associated with the USGS?

Anyway, you can completely ignore the video if you want, but have a butchers at the comments. I'm sure you'll spot various tactics even in the early stages of this back and forth I am in right now/was in before (delete as applicable).

Now this user and I have had plenty of back and forths across the videos, indeed many of the claims he's offered have been subjects of my videos, so there is perhaps an air of opposition, dislike or whatever, not sure how to word it. We obviously disagree and butt heads about things. But what do you think? Where do you think it'll go, what do you think is going on, what do you recognize about it? Like I say, you'll spot tactics, and many of you have been in plenty of situations like this before.

This is the best we (or maybe just I) seem to get. There isn't a whole lot of scientific debate. There is a lot of name calling. What can you do?

Though, I am a bit curious about the flooding myself, I just won't lead myself to believe it's connecting to 2012.

This person, had a theory of his own, now, before I tell you this theory, I want to point out that I've looked everywhere for a possible source of this theory and I, surprisingly, didn't find anything.
His theory was that the weight of the world's population, the trash, the buildings, cars, etc. would one day prove to be fatal for the planet, now, what he theorizes is that this weight will actually begin to sink entire continents, such as the United States, Canada, Australia, etc. and it will eventually, judging by the way he was describing it, begin to push everything toward the core of the Earth.

Now, I know that this theory, if that's even what you can call it, is complete nonsense, but it astonishes me that everyday people are coming up with things like this for 2012.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38757238/ns/technology_and_science-space/

I have read all the safety reports (Review of speculative disasterscenario at RHIC and LSAG-reports 03/08) and they are less then reasuring to be honest. They just say that energies higher than that are observed all the time, and that is more or less an outright lie. According to the Rhic-report heavy ion CR are extremely rare and has only been observed at energies below 2tev at com (for iron i think). So how can they claim that they have empirical evidence that these energies (up to 2.8tev this year) are safe when they havent observed collisions, especially not pb-pb, above 2tev?

why does people like this Gorelik guy claim that there are no observations of high energy cr consisting of heavy ions like pb, and that it's only pure spevulation?

Please help me figure this things out, i'm realy realy scared of thiws

I remember Heaven's Gate cult in the late 90's. I remember the hysteria surrounding 2000. Any student of history knows hysteria at various points of history, whether it was the Black Death or the year 1000 - and everything from primitive science to astrology and even Sibyline oracles (whose origins, especially by the medieval period, were very suspicious) and the like were dug up to attempt to pin down "the day and the hour" of the end. Many thousands of good people have had their lives disrupted either directly or indirectly by this insanity, and I pray that those who own the History Channel (Disney) don't wake up to find that the only disaster that awaits the world on December 21, 2012 and its surrounding days is the madness that they have released due to mass hysteria.

I completely agree with the mission of this site and I wanted to encourage you who are making it. There are so many people out there who know this is all trash, but so few who can explain why, much less to a mass audience. Thank you, thank you, thank you!

Much love to the 2012hoax team and contributors. <3 ..Yes, that's a heart.